Don’t sell yourself short – you got this! A pep talk with Micaela, Tara, and Sujani

Micaela 0:01
So I think it’s important to really feel the fact like if you’ve accomplished something small or big, really prop it up, because it matters.

Sujani 0:14
Welcome to PH SPOTlight, a community for you to build your public health career with. Join Us Weekly right here. And I’ll be here too, your host Sujani Siva from PH SPOT.

Sujani 0:30
Hey, Tara and Micaela, welcome to the PH SPOT podcast. Thank you both so much for joining me, this is going to be super fun, because I typically only record with one other guest. And it’s gonna be a really nice conversation today to have both of you kind of pitching on this topic that I really, really love talking about with other people. And I guess not recently, a number of months ago, when we had the career program, both of you had provided some valuable advice and tips to our participants. And I thought it’d be nice to invite you both back to talk about why we should not be selling ourselves short and really focusing on celebrating our wins. So thank you for joining me and welcome.

Tara 1:13
Thanks, Sujani.

Micaela 1:14
Thank you so much.

Sujani 1:15
All right. And yeah, I guess for our listeners, the first voice you heard was Tara’s and the second voice is Micaela’s but I’m sure once we jump into a- You’ll kind of identify each of our voices and know who’s speaking. So maybe I’ll start with Tara, and then Micaela, you can jump in afterwards. But this topic of not selling yourself short and really celebrating your wins when it comes to your career really goes back to this like idea of having confidence in yourself, right? And so building a career is super difficult. And there’s always these doubts, voices in your head that you have to keep fighting. So how do you deal with that, Tara, now that you’ve been working for a number of years in public health, and I’m sure you’ve constantly had to kind of deal with those voices? Like how do you go about it, and maybe you can share that. And then Micaela can jump in?

Tara 2:09
Sure. I think like I’m still quite young in my career. So you know, I started out. I graduated, and it was 2019. And it really felt like there was so many opportunities out there for public health. And then a few short months later, the pandemic started. And then I remember looking to myself in the mirror, I still hadn’t had a job in public health. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror being like, you know what, I’m going to be getting a job in public health now, like, this is exciting. And I did and I worked for two years in public health in a very much a public health role. And I think there’s still a lot of doubts that come, you know, when you look at your career, and you look at where you want to go. And it’s easy to fall back on. Oh, just that you don’t know what you want to do. But I think there’s just so many opportunities in public health, as we kind of all know, is such a broad place where there can be work done, like do you want to do more policy analysts? Or do you want to do project management? Do you want to be running innovations? So I think trying to hone in on one skill set can be really challenging. And then also when you’re trying to plan your career of how you want it to go and how you want it to look. But not only that, you also have to remember, build skills, and keep an eye on where you’re going. And it can be really challenging. And, you know, in the pandemic, not everyone was hiring. And so that can be a big challenge. And at the end of the day, we have a lot of privileges, but we all need to be paid for our work. And that can be a challenge when you’re trying to find your dream job.

Sujani 3:40
And I remember just thinking back to like when we had the session with some of our other members in the career program, can’t remember if it was you Micaela, who kind of like jumped in when somebody was explaining kind of that exact same scenario you were talking about where they had a lot of experience, they- In my eyes, at least I thinking back, they were quite qualified to land a job and build a great career in public health. But there was a lot of self doubt that they were dealing with. And I don’t know if it was you Micaela, who kind of like jumped in and said, like, you know, you really need to celebrate everything that you’ve achieved, because there’s quite a bit that you’ve achieved that you told us.

Micaela 4:18
Yeah, I think I had jumped in. And this other participant was talking about feeling like maybe she wasn’t good enough, or she hadn’t maybe developed all the skills or the competencies or what have you to get whatever dream job or whatever position that she was kind of thinking of. And I said to her something that other people have said to me you before earlier in my career, probably when I was still in university, which is even the smallest of things that you accomplish, celebrate them, take note of them and know that they are fun. If you have built a skill that will be useful or maybe not useful for some particular role. You have still built your own capacity so you can celebrate that. If you’ve achieved managing a project and something, even if it’s not directly related to public health, but so much of that transferable skills for managing projects, or coordinating a conference, or even just volunteering with different communities, all of that builds some sort of experiences, sort of skill sets, that often I think, especially when we’re younger, and especially for students, we just kind of take it for granted, like, oh, I’m just doing a little bit here to contribute, or I’m just filling in my time, but actually, we’re accumulating a lot of different experiences and tidbits that could be really well positioned in an application for a particular school or an application for a job. And I think anyone who’s like me, I suffered a lot of impostor syndrome for a while. I think we tend to, even if we can see, like, oh, I did something that was really cool, immediately think like, yeah, but that was a fluke. It wasn’t really me and people will not know. So I think it’s important to really feel the facts, like if you’ve accomplished something, small or big, and really prop it up, because it matters.

Sujani 6:02
Maybe I’ll ask you the same question as Tara, like, how do you deal with those voices in your head or the imposter syndrome that you just mentioned? Like, are there things that you actively do to kind of like, maybe not even like, shut that voice out, but to put it aside, so it doesn’t get in the way of you trying to achieve some of the goals that you are setting for yourself?

Micaela 6:22
I think there was a couple of different things. I think there’s external prompts and internal conversations. The imposter syndrome is something I managed from when I was like much younger, and even getting into grad school, I remember literally thinking they made a mistake. But the external world was saying, yes, we would like to open a spot for you. And my mind was saying they are mistaken. And so then the internal conversation was no, they are offering something and I need to decide if I believe I’m good enough for it or not. So they believe it. Now I have to choose to believe it as well. And I think that that’s something that I took on for other types of experiences thereafter. My initial thought is like, oh, they’re wrong. They don’t really know the truth. And I do. But then I just need to switch that narrative, like maybe they know the truth. And I need to get on board with how they also perceive some of the stuff that I’ve been able to accomplish.

Sujani 7:12
Yeah, it’s a great example, I think, yeah, getting into grad school is something I’ve heard a lot of other people kind of also use as an example of like, wow, I actually got in. Now it’s about, I guess, yeah, convincing myself that I can do this and do well in it and then Tara, I want to turn it to you to see if you had any examples in your life where you had to talk to that voice in your head and put it aside so that you can move on with those goals.

Tara 7:38
For sure. There’s actually like a quote that I remember from grade 10 math. And it was about calculus, completely unrelated. But it was a quote that I said it the other day to someone, but it was like you’re putting tools in the toolbox. And you don’t know when you’re going to use them. But they’re going to be there. And I think it kind of echoes Micaela’s sentiments earlier is that, you know, this report that you wrote, like, it might not be something that’s directly related to everything that you want to do. But you’re putting tools in the toolbox, you’re learning how to strengthen your skills on Microsoft Word, or you’re strengthening your skills on Excel, and you’re strengthening your project management skills, all those things. Sure, it’s great when they come from public health and so beneficial. But public health is so broad, like there’s so many different avenues that you can go to seek those opportunities. So throughout, like my career, I started preparing for like a career in public health quite early. But I also knew, like, you know, to be in public health, I want to have a wide skill set. And so I would seek out opportunities in international development with local communities and indigenous communities to build my skill set so that I, you know, when I get the opportunity to apply to that dream job, that I had this skill set, and that’s ultimately what I was able to provide in my previous role.

Sujani 8:53
You know, I am thinking about, like, other questions I wanted to ask, and maybe it might have been better if we started with that. But maybe someone listening is thinking, it’s okay, like, I don’t need to really sell myself, high, because I can just kind of get by, and I want to, like really convince them that there are great benefits to really celebrating your wins and not selling yourself short. Because of all the great opportunities that are presented to yourself when you do get out of your own way. And I don’t know if Micalea or Tara, you have anything more to like, comment on the benefits of really like celebrating yourself and saying, like, yeah, I am worthy of these amazing opportunities, I can do this, let me like shut those voices out and let’s get on with it.

Micaela 9:40
How I also kind of feed and frame it is, you know, I am a woman in my position of the workplace. People still see me as a young woman, and sometimes they see me because I’m young, and a woman sometimes it feels like they may not value so much whatever contributions I’m bringing to the table. And so in that kind of context, it’s important that I’m able to at the very least, believe in myself, the pitching and the celebrating isn’t necessarily outwardly, I don’t need to show off, I’ve achieved X, Y, and Zed, I just need to believe what I have done is worth the value. So that it’s almost a form of resistance to kind of like a society that doesn’t really value young professionals from the beginning to say, no, I have achieved this important thing. And I think, you know, I am white in skin tone, but I’m mixed race. And I think, a lot of spaces in workplaces around the world. If you are a white man, like a cis hetero white man, you’re more likely to just have just self confidence and praise and etc, from external people telling you, you believing in yourself your whole life because of socialization. But then those of us who are not straight white men, we need to have a little push. And sometimes that can be good if it comes from inside a little bit, it becomes a bit of resistance, and kind of revolutionary against a workplace culture that doesn’t necessarily always celebrate those of us who have different types of social barriers at the workplace.

Sujani 11:11
I don’t know, Tara, if you wanted to add more to that I had some thoughts to share. But I’ll let you go first.

Tara 11:17
Yeah, I was just thinking when you said that, Micaela that, I think I was just listening to this on a podcast recently. But with males in the workplace, I think just any setting would be that, you know, if they’re in a room where it’s 50% women 50% males, and males speak less than it’s like 60 or 70% of the time, they feel like it wasn’t equal, like they didn’t speak as much. And so even in rooms where there’s 90% women or 70%, women, it’s often if males aren’t speaking at least 50% of the time, they feel that like, wow, women really dominated that space. I don’t have those numbers completely accurate. But I just find it so interesting to reflect on that when you’re in settings as a woman.

Sujani 12:02
I think the other- other piece I want to add here is each of us has lived experiences that I think we need to contribute to the conversations happening, not only in public health, but because we are talking to public health professionals to policies that are being developed to products being built in the space of public health. And I think it’s important for us to be there at those conversations, at those tables and advocate not only for ourselves, but groups and individuals where like we fit into those I guess groups, for example, we all mentioned women, people of color, immigrants, right? So I think there’s all these different groups that we can advocate for. And I think we can bring our lived experiences to these conversations. And I think it’s important for us to do that. And as public health professionals being trained in this field, it’s almost a responsibility we have, right, to add to the conversation. Micaela, I see your hand go for it.

Micaela 13:08
Yeah, thanks, Sujani. I just, I think what you just shared also prompted I think I’m going back and my memories from when I was in university.

Sujani 13:15
Yeah.

Micaela 13:15
But another example that I still feels relevant to me, in terms of like, I am not someone who likes to, I do enjoy a party, but I don’t enjoy telling the world look, I have achieved this, this and that. Maybe yes to my my close friends and my family, just so that we all celebrate together, but not really like post on Facebook, here’s a huge achievement to get all these likes or whatever. But I remember when I was in university, I used to volunteer quite a bit with the Latin American Association, the Student Association for Latin American students, I accumulated a number of hours. And after the third or fourth year of university, I ended up getting awarded some sort of volunteer something like it was a certificate, I think even came with maybe some money or something. And of course, I was very happy to be valued by the association. And they asked me if I could post on my social media about winning this award. And I felt that that didn’t really align with my values, because I didn’t really want to be showing off that I had won this award. But the president of that association told me that this isn’t about me showing off. It’s about showing away and showing people this Latin American student has put in some time she’s worked with different groups at the university. And it’s a way of also sharing your experience to show a different path for those who are in similar career paths as you like how you got to where you are, because if you don’t celebrate it, or if you don’t show it, you’re also not sharing the knowledge of how you got to where you are.

Sujani 14:43
Yeah, for sure. And I think there’s that positive circle, right, that kind of like reinforces something you’ve done. So you achieving this award, you’re posting it for the purposes of showing other individuals what was possible, and then you get that reinforcement from like people that are commenting and saying like, wow, thanks for sharing this Micaela. Like I can now see myself in your shoes. And that just pushes you to want to keep going and keep doing more. I think I used to be like you too, where I just absolutely did not like posting anything, but I’m kind of seeing the value of sharing our accomplishments as a way to positively kind of reinforce some of the, the actions I’ve taken in my career or to help individuals or whatever, maybe. And when we talk about like, adding to the conversation, and being there, as an advocate for the groups that you belong to, we just kind of think about, just like, historically, some of the decisions that were being made or policies that were made. And if we take the example of woman not being represented in some of those, I guess, decisions, it’s kind of funny and fascinating to look at those examples, right? I think one example are maybe like the crash tests in cars, if I remember, like, they were mostly all tested on male figures, and not women. And sometimes I’ll even like sit in my car and my- my husband jokes that the headrest never really fits my body size. And I always wonder is it because like, it hasn’t been tested on too many body sizes, for example. So you know, you can see examples in the world where not enough representation has been kind of accounted for. And that’s kind of another- another motivation for like our listeners, if you’re kind of holding back on celebrating your wins, and not really getting out of your own ways and not selling yourself short, so that you can achieve those goals. And you can make a mark in public health and be the voice for some of the groups that you belong to. Yeah, and I don’t know, Tara, if you wanted to add more to this part?

Tara 16:55
For sure, I think kind of what Micaela was saying before with like the imposter syndrome, and sort of what that means for spaces that maybe don’t feel so belonging as women, or people of color, or any various different reasons is that it’s like this whole thing of like, fake it till you make it. And that, you know, everyone’s kind of just faking it. And I don’t mean that in a disparaging way, I mean, in a way that no one really knows what they’re doing. And I think when you kind of come to that realization that everyone’s I wouldn’t say winging it, but everyone’s just sort of trying their best. And then I think I remember when I was like, younger, before grad school, specifically, but even just I mean, probably even right now, you always like see different people in roles. And you think, wow, they’ve really got it all together, they really know what they want to do, I think at this thing is no one really knows, like, everyone’s just trying, they’re using the knowledge that they have. And they’re trying to make the best decision in that moment. And I think when you kind of come to that realization that no one holds this, like magic power, and they know exactly what they’re doing. It’s a kind of empowering, and you are able to make better decisions. And you’re able to see people that are above you more as peers, instead of there being necessarily a power imbalance, which can be really challenging in the workplace, or in any sort of setting.

Sujani 18:12
Yeah, that’s an excellent point. And it reminds me of my early days, and even now, when I try to find guests or contributors to our blog, or guest for the podcast, I’ll reach out to students and individuals who are early in their careers to come on and share their stories. And, you know, most often people will say, yes, but there are a few individuals and I get sad by the responses where they tell me, maybe I’ll come on once I’ve achieved something more. And like, to your point, Tara, what I wanted to showcase on the podcast, and even the blog is like the journey that people have taken. And for like our community to see everything from like individuals who are just maybe one or two steps in front of them to individuals who are maybe retired and or have been working in public health for decades, I think it’s nice to see those steps. And to your point of like, everyone is kind of figuring it out. And I think that’s so important to keep in mind. Because, like, it’s just nice to know that and it’s comforting. And I think if we can show that through these different resources, and I can convince more people to come on and just like talk about the past two years of their school, so that somebody’s just entering their public health program kind of has visibility and understanding of maybe all the struggles they went through and all the wins that they had, and it feels a lot more closer to see that versus hearing stories, maybe from someone who’s 20 years ahead of you. Right? So that’s a great point, Tara. And Mikayla, I don’t know if you wanted to add anything more to that.

Micaela 19:51
Honestly, it all just resonates. I had also thought of like the fake it to make it stuff earlier as well. But we’re all kind I was just doing our best. And again, I think a lot of it hinges on like how much we believe in ourselves. So I think another thing I had said to maybe it was that same person in program, which I think is said in different spaces or what have you, but sometimes it’s just good to have the confidence of a mediocre white man. They believe in themselves. Like, that’s the difference. Like, they may actually not be mediocre, but they may be, but they believe in themselves. And that’s where the differences for some of us are competent, but we don’t fully believe in ourselves. But then we have to remember that like some mediocre white men probably would believe that they can do this, and I know I can do better. And that’s the internal conversation you can have with yourself, or yeah, sorry, I’m looking back around to my first point.

Sujani 20:43
No, it’s- it’s a good segue into what I wanted to talk about next. It’s like some of those tangible, I guess, steps people can take. And you talked about that internal reflection that you do. And- and maybe if we, like, for example, let’s take a hypothetical situation and say, someone sees a job posting, and they are thinking to themselves, oh, like, I don’t meet 100% of these requirements are asking for, I don’t think I could do this job, I’m going to skip applying to it even though the opportunity sounds super cool. And I’d love to be a part of this organization, etc. How would you approach that kind of mindset, like maybe you put yourself in that role, what are some tactical things that you would do or say to yourself, or maybe there’s like a series of things that you would do to get over that barrier that you’re kind of like putting on for yourself and actually go about applying, I don’t know if he wanted to maybe start and then the other one could jump in.

Tara 21:47
I think just apply. And when you really look at your resume, there’s ways like if you’ve done some project management, maybe you’ve done project coordinating. And there’s ways I don’t know, I watch probably watch too much Tik Tok, they’ll go over like your resume, you don’t serve drinks, you again, they have this fancy way of taking a simple task and meeting the requirements. And there’s going to be times where you genuinely don’t have any skill point that they want. And you might not have that, but still emphasize the ones that you do. And oftentimes, I don’t know what you might know. But the percentage of the requirements isn’t 100% that they’re looking for, ensure in some cases they are and they- You won’t- you’ll be screened out. But in some cases, they’re looking for like 70-80%, like they’re looking for their dream candidate. You might be the 80% candidate, and the next person is 70%. So still the top of the chain.

Sujani 22:45
I think like knowing some of those stats can help you overcome kind of the self doubt. Yeah, I guess my question was more like, before you even get to applying, is there like a pep talk that you do to yourself to like, even consider applying or do you go about it in some other, I guess direction to? Like, really tell yourself, okay, let’s do this.

Tara 23:10
I think for me, I do a lot of research for the company to see if it’s a company that aligns with the values that I have. And if it’s something that seems so far out there. Yeah, like sometimes it’s intimidating, because I think as Micaela said earlier, like that imposter syndrome, like, I don’t belong there. Like, everyone’s so professional. And it’s- That’s a challenge for sure.

Sujani 23:29
Yeah. And I think like even having conversations with peers is also a way to kind of get over that I know, I talk to people if there’s a job that I really like, and sometimes you just need that push from somebody that’s not you. I guess it goes back to Micaela as external forces that says no, and just apply, what are you going to lose? Right? Like they’re not going to respond to you. And when you kind of reframe it that way, you get out of your own way team and like, put your name in the hat.

Micaela 23:57
Yeah. And just to add on to that, I think another thing that I know I’ve done before is to visualize myself already having the job. So I agree with Tara kind of like looking at the organization. This is something that actually aligns with who I want to be and what I want to do. But sometimes, you know, you can see the job description. And based on that I sometimes imagined, okay, this is what my day to day would look like. And I think I can manage that day to day, then I think I might as well apply even if I don’t meet 100% of the criteria on the list of qualifications. Of course, if they have like essential PhD, and I don’t have a PhD I don’t- I don’t think that I would go ahead. But it helps to visualize myself working on the day to day for that particular job.

Sujani 24:40
Yeah, you sound like you do a lot of self reflections. Micaela, is that something that you picked up over time? How did that come about?

Micaela 24:50
Yeah, I think it’s- It’s a mix of different things as it gets anxiety driven on one end, because as someone with anxiety, I picture a bunch of different scenarios all the time. So there’s a bit of that, because I’ve had anxiety in my life, I do practice some journaling and reflecting to calm my nervous system down and say like, you’ve got this, it’s okay. There’s no danger. You- This could be a reality that isn’t scary. And it’s not impossible, you can go ahead. So I think it’s a mix of that.

Sujani 25:20
Are there any resources that you would recommend for anyone who’s wanting to either like, try out or do a bit more of this, like internal reflection and journaling and things like that?

Micaela 25:31
Yeah, I’ve actually done career coaching twice before? Well, once and a half. I’ve, I’ve tried to work with career coaches in the past. And I have found them to be super, super useful. I didn’t know that it was like a profession that was really specific to career. And when I started doing it, they guided me through a lot of kind of like exercises that I would do on my own, and then I would be able to regurgitate them, these kinds of exercises with them, almost like a therapist, but for your career.

Sujani 26:08
Yeah.

Micaela 26:08
And I think that if a budget allows, that is something I would recommend to anyone in early career.

Sujani 26:16
I’m also discovering a lot of kind of like, life coaching and career coaching. And a lot of them even have like, great podcasts and resources that you can test out to see if you like them. You connect with them, and then see what additional support they do have. And I guess, Tara, you kind of like do something that I do, because I hear you talk about a lot of podcasts. And yeah, I’m curious to hear if that’s your way of motivating yourself and kind of like keeping yourself like inspired in this space? Because I know I do. And that’s kind of my way of going about things. If I need to kind of get out of my own way or need a bit of inspiration, I- I’ll find a podcast that kind of resonates with my current mood. And that’ll help me take the next step.

Tara 27:04
Yeah, absolutely. So much knowledge that can be gained from different podcasts. And it’s nice listening to someone’s thoughts and interviews. Yeah, I also like biking, and walking. And I think it was like- it was like, I try and be quite reflective. And I think for me, also writing would be helpful. And I think that’s something that really helped me throughout my undergrad, when I sort of pictured my career and what the kind of things I wanted to do. It’s overwhelming thinking of a career. And I think I really like what Micaela said about having a therapist for your career. And I think that’s, it’s such a big decision. And it’s, it’s a huge weight on your shoulder. And it’s- it’s great for the people that you know, had it figured out and you know, went into professional program like nursing or engineering, you know, you’re coming out and doing that career path. So I think it’s really important. And I, I think everyone should be, I don’t know, taking a career therapist session, or once in their life, they’ll be invaluable.

Sujani 28:05
I think the other resource I would kind of add to this, in addition to kind of like, yeah, self reflections, podcasts, professional support, through coaches, talking to people in your network, right, I think there’s just so much value that our peers and our mentors and individuals in public health who have done certain roles or have had certain experiences before us, and I think they just hold such value. And I’ve benefited tremendously by just speaking to some of my peers and mentors, and maybe like bypass supervisors, it can be scary at first, like if you’ve never had a personal conversation with them. But once I think you do break that barrier, it’s great to tap into them as well. I think the first time I did it, I just sent a note to a old supervisor to say like, hey, I’m needing to make a decision based on like two offers I’ve received. And I don’t know which way to go, can I chat with you about it? And it was- It felt awkward at first to ask them that. But then once we did chat, I like felt such relief because there’s someone who- It’s kind of like in the same area in terms of my career, and it was nice to just hear their feedback, like no one’s going to have the answer for you, not even a career coach, but people will help you reframe things, people will help you ask the right questions to yourself and do that bit of like reflection that’s needed.

Tara 29:27
And they’ll also know what that work entails. Like what the long term career like, like what the opportunities might be. So yeah, talking to people is incredibly valuable.

Micaela 29:38
I agree with you fully that talking with people in your networks can be super useful tool. And that’s something also that the career coaches that I’ve had have also kind of directed me to is to reach out to people in the network, also identify who’s in your team. I think we all have like a cheer team behind us and sometimes it’s good to just take a moments and reflect on like, okay, who’s really cheering me on? Because those are people who are going to put time if you have questions, or, as you just explained Sujani, you want to have a conversation about a potential opportunity, people who are invested in your future and who want to see you thrive, it takes time to figure out who those are. But once you find them, they’re a good resource for a long time.

Sujani 30:22
Absolutely. Yeah. I think like building your support network of public health professionals that you trust and you respect and really want to hear their advice. It takes time. And I think, yeah, that’s a whole episode on its own. And I think I could go on and on about building relationships with people. But yeah, thanks so much, Tara and Micaela for jumping on today’s episode and chatting with me about this topic I think I was telling you about before we recorded that I been wanting to have this pep talk on the podcast to our listeners. And instead of doing it on my own, I thought it’d be fun to have the two of you also join me and share some of your experiences and stories. So thanks so much for joining me. And yeah, I don’t know if you- if either one of you or both of you have any last words of advice or wisdom for our listeners.

Micaela 31:13
I think just believe in yourself. It sounds super corny, but that’s what it comes down to.

Sujani 31:20
Love it. How ’bout you, Tara?

Tara 31:22
Yeah, I think just no experience is bad experience. It’s gonna help you grow. And even if it’s not exactly where you want to be, those are skills and it’s gonna help show you where you want to be.

Sujani 31:36
Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that episode. And as always, if you want to get the links and information mentioned in today’s episode, head over to pHspot.org/podcast. And we’ll have everything there for you. And before you go, I want to tell you about our hands on intensive training program that empowers early public health professionals, recent graduates, and students with the mindset skills and tools required to land a public health job, advancing your career and become future public health leaders. So if you’ve been feeling overwhelmed and uncertain about building your dream public health career, then we can help you through this program. And right now, you can join the waitlist at pHspot.org/program. And we’ll notify you when the next cohort opens up. And so until next time, thank you so much for tuning into PH SPOTlight, and for the invaluable work that you do for this world.