Post-grad job search tips & getting into the private sector, with Jennifer Mandelbaum

Jennifer 0:00
Having a credential like masters or a PhD can be useful, it can be good to see what’s out there and kind of figure out if you might need a degree to move forward into the career you want. But oftentimes, you don’t need that credential can be qualified by gaining work experience. So I think you need to consider both kind of the personal and professional reasons for pursuing higher education.

Sujani 0:36
Welcome to PH SPOTlight, a community for you to build your public health career with, Join us Weekly right here. And I’ll be here too, your host, Sujani Siva, from PH SPOT.

Hi Jennifer, and welcome to the PH SPOT podcast. It’s so wonderful to you know, to have met you, and then to have this conversation around your public health career and a topic that always comes up when I whether I talk to individuals, you know, through my LinkedIn posts or one on one when I’m working with them and coaching with them. So we will get into that in a little bit. But, you know, first off welcome. And I’m thrilled to be able to share your journey and your advice with our listeners.

Jennifer 1:24
Well, thank you so much for having me looking forward to, to chatting.

Sujani 1:29
Yeah. For some of our listeners, they’ve heard Gwendolyn on our on our episode, and that was a wonderful episode. And that’s how you and I got connected. So grateful for these opportunities for me to meet incredible people like you.

Jennifer 1:43
Absolutely. Always nice to have that American Public Health Association connection.

Sujani 1:48
Yeah, exactly. So one of the, you know, my favorite question, at least is how my guests discovered public health, you know, for me, and many, if not all of the guests that I’ve interviewed. For a lot of them, it was kind of this accidental discovery, you know, not many of them knew what public health was. And you know, one thing led to another, whether it was somebody told them about it, or it was a course in university, and they stumbled into this field, and then they start digging into it more. What was your journey like?

Jennifer 2:22
Sure. So, I grew up in a family where health care was kind of dinner table conversation. So my dad and brother had chronic health conditions. And both of my parents worked in health care, my mom is a psychotherapist and my dad has a clinical background, and then ended up working in health policy. So I think just having grown up around that, I knew I wanted something within the healthcare field. But it wasn’t until I got to college that I learned the term public health. So I was taking a class called the American health care system. And this was back in 2010, or 2011, when the Affordable Care Act was a very big topic within health policy. So it was a really interesting time to be learning about health care and public health, just given everything that was going on with that. So that class was the first time I had heard the term public health. And I really fell in love with the idea of working at the population level, I definitely think that individual clinical care is important, but I just don’t think it was for me. So I love the idea of using data and kind of working at that higher level.

Sujani 3:53
And so for you, you went ahead and got a bachelor’s in health, so and then two years after you went in and got a master’s of public health, and then right after that a PhD. So it sounds like you kind of knew this was a path that you wanted to take. And for myself included at some points during that journey, you’re always questioning like, when is the right time to go and get additional education in order to kind of continue on your career journey and so curious to hear what sort of decisions or things you had to battle between as you were deciding to pursue this pathway.

Jennifer 4:32
So I think once I kind of latched on to public health as something I wanted to do, I definitely took it as far as I could go. When I was doing my bachelor’s degree can nearing the end of that and looking at job opportunities. I saw that many of the things I was interested in required a master’s degree. So I kind of thought well might as well apply now see what happens and then ended kept doing that. And then while I was working on my master’s, I was talking with a lot of my professors and kind of getting a sense of what academia is like, in a way that I hadn’t really understood when I was an undergraduate student. And I learned how if you want to be a principal investigator on a study, you really need a doctorate to do that. I also wanted to keep the door open to teaching at some point, I’ve had some really wonderful professors, and really liked the idea of maybe at some point, doing some teaching, and working with students who are also really interested in passionate about public health.

Sujani 5:51
And so for individuals who are kind of thinking about whether to pursue a PhD or not, so you mentioned, you know, wanting to lead research work, wanting to teach, were there other things that you kind of said, Okay, these are the reasons I want to pursue a PhD.

Jennifer 6:09
I think kind of a big thing. But it sounds pretty basic, I think, is that I just wasn’t done learning.

Sujani 6:16
Yeah.

Jennifer 6:17
And I felt like my bachelor’s and master’s had given me a really nice base. And especially in terms of kind of topical content but I also wanted to develop some of my skills further, in terms of things like statistical programming, other research methods, I had done some qualitative work during my master’s, and really wanted to build that my quantitative skills. That definitely played a role too.

Sujani 6:52
It’s funny you say that, because I’ve always felt like that, like I graduated from my master’s maybe over 10 years ago. And I think even when I graduated, I felt like I wasn’t ready for a doctoral kind of level education. But I knew I wasn’t done learning. And it’s funny, because I think you’ve, you’ve given me the words that I was searching for. And even 10 years later, you know, I think, you know, how can I ever sit in a classroom, and it’s a whole new thing. But I still feel like, I’m not done learning. And it’s funny, because my husband doesn’t understand that concept. Like, he’s not someone who understands this, like world of academia, world of learning, he’s like, I’ll just go on YouTube and learn why do you need to go to school kind of person. So it’s, it’s interesting that you said that, because I hadn’t had the words to describe what I was feeling. And in it is that it is this feeling of not being done learning.

Jennifer 7:49
Yeah. And academia, it’s just, I think, to your point, so different than- than some other environments and careers. Yeah, I guess I’ll just throw in the idea that it’s not too late to go. For you or anyone else. One of my managers when I worked for a state health agency, has been talking a lot about going back for her DPH just given that she has so much kind of on the ground experience. So I just think it’s really interesting what people’s career journeys are whether they get a doctorate or not.

Sujani 8:30
Yeah.

Jennifer 8:31
It depends on your circumstances, and what you’re looking for.

Sujani 8:34
Exactly. And I think, you know, whether it’s a master’s, or a doctorate level degree, you know, my advice to people, and I’d be curious to hear yours, it’s kind of knowing exactly why you want it, right? Sometimes, you may be having trouble landing a job, and you think that this other degree is going to help you get a job immediately, right, when you graduate. And what I- what I asked people is, is the degree the only factor that’s kind of preventing you from landing the job, or are there other elements, right, maybe it’s getting experience. And so I know for me, for example, me going to go get a DrPH, and that’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about. I know that it’s not going to do anything, like huge in terms of me getting the next position or like the next promotion because I know I can get it without it. Many of my directors and higher up they are in those roles without a doctoral level degree. So I know for me, it’s more of a personal reason that I want to go back to school. And so I’d be curious to hear what sort of advice you’ve given people when they’re considering whether it’s a master’s degree or like a doctoral level degree, especially if the reason is kind of like, I can’t find a job right now. So maybe I need to go back to school and get another degree. And then, and that is one of the things that we wanted to talk about is kind of this post grad job search, right?

Jennifer 9:58
Yeah. So I think like what we were talking about earlier, you have to have some internal motivation for wanting to pursue a doctorate because it’s a big commitment. And it often means timeout from full time work. I know there are some options in the US, at least where you can join a program part time, when I think especially for master’s programs, there are a lot more online options that let you study at your own pace. But I really think you need to have a compelling reason for wanting to pursue higher education, because it’s a big commitment, can be a big expense, I think you have to think about that opportunity costs. So if you’ve been working full time and need to step back from that, that’s income and benefits that you’re not earning, and you’re not moving up your career ladder with that role, kind of in the same way that you might be with additional degrees. I do think that having a credential like masters or a PhD can be useful. So I think it can be good to job postings, see what’s out there, and kind of figure out if you might need a degree to move forward into the career you want. But oftentimes, you you don’t need that credential, you can be qualified by gaining work experience. So I think you need to consider both kind of the personal and professional reasons for pursuing higher education. Obviously, school is something I very much like so

Sujani 11:45
yeah, I think there’s a there’s a lot of us in public health. I think this love for learning, I think wants us back in school. And I’m seeing that as a theme as I as I meet more and more people. So today, like the role that you have, as a healthcare economists, consultant at Optum. And, as I understand it, Optum is health services and innovation company. And I also know that you have a hand in academia, in the past, you’ve had experience kind of in the public sector as well. I think it was in kind of like State Department of Health. Yeah. And so I know, I get lots of questions that I don’t have the answer to this. And I’m really hoping you could share some of your wisdom around getting into kind of the private sector with this public health background. And I’m noticing very anecdotally, and just from very much kind of observations of sitting online and seeing trends, that there are more opportunities in the private sector. And I’m seeing individuals kind of having interests in the private sector without public health background. And I’m someone who believes that we can do incredible things if we can spread public health professionals, not just in the public sector, but also in the private sector and academia. Like I think we need to be everywhere to be able to push for change. And you having had this successful career and having spent some time at Optum, would you be able to maybe talk about how that journey maybe is quite different when you are thinking about getting into the private sector.

Jennifer 13:28
Absolutely. So I think one of the biggest things I learned in my job search was how to network, I had heard a lot about the importance of networking, but I think, especially when a lot of the job search has shifted to being online. Like all my interviews, were over zoom, and I applied through online portals. And you can kind of have less face to face interactions with folks, figuring out what networking means can be a bit difficult. So if you haven’t already, make sure you have a LinkedIn profile, make sure that’s populated with whatever details you think might be most pertinent to the positions you want. And you can find that out by looking through jobs that are posted online, I think like zip recruiter and indeed.com have a pretty good selection of jobs. And you can just kind of plug in your skills into the search engine. Or maybe if you have an idea of the title you want, search for that and then see what they’re looking for. But getting back to networking. If you have a LinkedIn profile, I think that’s a really good place to start. So look at your connections and see who’s working for a company that- that interests you, and who’s doing things that you could see yourself doing at some point and not being afraid to reach out I mean I, I reached out to people I knew from high school and college, that I haven’t spoken to very long time. And I found that for the most part, people are very generous with their time and expertise, and want to help. So I think if you’re afraid that you might be burdening someone with your questions, don’t be, because I think it’s really important to speak to people who are working for these companies that interests you to get a sense of what the day to day is like, and what opportunities for advancement exist. So definitely reach out to folks. Also, a lot of industry jobs, use a referral system. So if you can make a connection with someone who works for a company that interests you, they might be able to send you a referral link. And basically what that does is, say to the internal company recruiter, that someone within the company thinks that you’d be a good fit for this job, or kind of the company in general. And I think that’s kind of anecdotally helpful in getting interviews, or at least, you know, getting your resume and cover letter to have a closer look by a recruiter, and then work with those recruiters to once you have an in at that company, I got my current job, because I had applied to a few roles at Optum. And then within the UnitedHealth Group organization, and I had been speaking with particular recruiter, and she mentioned that there is a new job posting that she thought would be a really good fit for me. So definitely building connections, not being afraid to ask questions and ask people for help, I think and getting those referral links, I think are really important.

Sujani 17:07
So it sounds like you know, whether it’s in the public sector, or private sector, and maybe more so in the private sector, and networking and knowing people is, is quite key to you, you know, at least getting your foot into the door.

Jennifer 17:22
Yeah, absolutely. I think so much of it is just getting your foot in the door in the first place.

Sujani 17:29
So I look at kind of the past three roles that you’ve been in. And it’s interesting, because it’s been in private sector, then State Department of Health, and then academia kind of as in the research role, if we’re not looking at kind of your lecture role. And I’m curious, has your resume or cover letter or interview like, do you remember any, like very big differences between those three applications.

Jennifer 17:59
So when I was applying for the role at the state health agency, I remember talking a lot about wanting to apply what I had been learning to practice and kind of getting some of that on the ground experience. And I think one thing I had been learning about academia as I had kind of built relationships with faculty members, is that it takes a long time for research to make its way into practice. And now there’s the growing field of implementation science. So I think there’s been a bigger focus, especially in the last decade or two, about applying findings a lot sooner, but I’ve- I’ve heard that, on average, it takes about 17 years for research findings to become common practice. And that was something that I found pretty frustrating. So I really wanted to learn more about how public health works at the state level, and how those professionals are learning about new findings and applying those. So I definitely talked a lot about that in my cover letter and in interviews, when it came time to apply to a new role, and I was looking almost exclusively at industry jobs. I think it was really about being very specific about your skill set. And I think oftentimes in academia, or at least for me, personally, I think folks tend to be pretty humble. And when you’re applying for a job where you really need to be clear about what you do and don’t know. You definitely want to play up those transferable skills, not in a way that exaggerates your expertise. But don’t diminish your skill set. So I think that’s that’s kind of an important thing too. I also kind of came up with this line that I used a lot that I think kind of summed up my experience thus far in academia and in the public sector. That I think explains a bit why I was looking to jump to industry. So I remember saying a lot in interviews that I am passionate about using data to tell stories that can improve patient care and public health. And I think that that data piece was really what was for me, it was tying together what I had done in the public sector to what I wanted to do in the private sector.

Sujani 20:54
Yeah, see that- that was kind of what I was guessing. And before we started recording, I told you how somebody had told me that when they were reviewing applications from public health professionals wanting to get into private sector, that they didn’t think that their resumes and cover letter kind of spoke enough. And it wasn’t up to the, I guess, the industry standards in terms of how you apply and how you present your skills. And I didn’t know exactly what she meant by that. And I was guessing it’s probably that applicants aren’t explicitly saying like, this is why I’m so awesome. And this is why you need to hire me. I think it’s helpful if you do that for any application, but sounds like maybe it might be just a tiny bit more important when you’re applying to like the private sector.

Jennifer 21:44
Maybe, I mean, I think when you’re applying to any job, it’s important to explain why you’re interested in that role, and also what you can offer. So I think it’s a good practice to kind of take language from that job posting. So if they’re, if they mention a specific software, like SAS, and you have some experience in that, then you need to address that within your resume and cover letter.

Sujani 22:15
Yeah. So you graduated in 2022 of December. And you know, one of the things that we wanted to talk about was kind of your post grad, job search and your experiences, and perhaps some additional tips and advice that you may have for folks graduating right now.

Jennifer 22:33
Yeah. So one thing I kept in mind, in my job search was that my first job after my PhD is not going to be my last job. So I think, again, like what you’re talking about, in terms of getting your foot in the door, when it comes to applying and interviewing for jobs. I think whether you have a role in the public sector, or the private sector, kind of getting your foot in the door, in terms of that sector is important. So if you are interested in a career, in the private sector, then just kind of getting that first job in industry can be helpful, I think, regardless of what it is, and you still want to make sure that it’s a good fit for you, and you’re a good fit for the company. But definitely don’t put too much pressure on yourself that this job is going to be the one you have for the rest of your life. That said, I think it’s also important to consider opportunities for growth too, so- so keep that in mind as you’re applying some things that might be helpful during your degree program, as you’re thinking ahead to the job search, I think it’s important to have multiple mentors. So those could be people at your university or outside of your university. But I think it’s important to recognize that the person you go to for one thing might not be the person you go to for something else. And everyone’s going to have different pieces of advice for you. So you’re going to want to build kind of a mentoring team around you. I think it can also be really helpful to get involved with professional organizations, I as a student, and now as an early career professional, I was very involved with the American Public Health Association, and also the Society of behavioral medicine. So you can do a lot of networking through those organizations. SPM in particular, has kind of built up its focus on industry jobs. So there are a lot of webinars. At the annual meeting. There are roundtable, networking events. So those things they think can be really helpful at learning more about what it means to work in the private sector, if that’s of interest to you, and doing some networking too, I definitely met some folks through those organizations that I reached out to during my job search. And then I think something that we’ve been speaking a lot about is thinking about those transferable skills. My impression of, of jobs in the private sector has really been that they want to see kind of concrete skills in terms of the statistical methodology, you know, statistical software. So I think kind of building that up is important during your academic training, there are a lot of resources online about kind of how to translate what you’ve been doing in your coursework, or kind of, in your professional experiences, so far into kind of industry speak, they definitely recommend checking those out, you just do a quick Google search around transferable skills for industry, and you’ll, you’ll come up with a lot of hits.

Sujani 26:07
And I think what’s interesting about what you’re currently doing is that you’re kind of full time employment is at Optum. And then you have a hand in academia as well, especially, you know, with a PhD, and I’ve come across a number of people who, more and more aren’t getting a PhD in order to just remain in academia alone, right? I wonder if you have any specific advice for some of our listeners who are in that situation, you know, specifically graduating from a PhD degree? And are wondering, you know, like, what do I do next? And if academia is not the path that I want to be on- What other options do I have?

Jennifer 26:49
Yeah, so I think one thing I also learned about academia is that experience can vary so much, it is very different to work for an R1 Research Institute, where much of your time is spent on funding and research. And there’s a little bit less emphasis on teaching, as opposed to liberal arts colleges, where I mean, many of them are building up public health or community health programs. But your focus really is on teaching. So when I was kind of trying to decide what I wanted to do, and still feeling a little hesitant about kind of leaving academia fully, I reached out to folks I knew through LinkedIn, and Twitter too, I think can be a good resource for making connections to talk with them about what it’s like to work for a small liberal arts college, because my experience so far had been it, I mostly research institutions. Yeah. And I think you just get a different feel for what that is like. And it’s, it’s a very different experience. So for those listeners, who maybe are feeling like they want to have a role in academia, but maybe don’t want to be so research focused or want to devote more of their time to teaching, I definitely recommend speaking to some folks who are working for smaller colleges and universities, because there are a lot of opportunities there. And kind of depending on your interests, and where you see yourself and your career, that could be a good fit.

Sujani 28:25
Yeah, that’s incredible. Maybe we can wrap up kind of our conversation by hearing a little bit more about, you know, what your day looks like at Optum, especially if you know, folks are interested in the type of work that you’re currently doing there.

Jennifer 28:41
Yeah, absolutely. So my job involves a lot of using behavioral medical and pharmacy claims data, to tell stories to figure out what’s going on. So I think, kind of more recently, but certainly kind of dating back 10-20 years, a lot of companies are recognizing that electronic health records. And claims have a lot of potential in terms of research, to figure out how we can optimize patient care and how we can reduce costs without sacrificing patient care and good patient outcomes. So I spend a lot of time pulling data from these large data warehouses, and then analyzing them. And oftentimes, my colleagues and I have a very specific focus. So recently, we’ve been looking at outpatient behavioral health visits. And in particular, those patients are members who are high utilizers. So those people who are- or having behavioral health care visits their numbering into into the hundreds over the course of the year and kind of figuring out what’s going on there. So kind of from that point, it’s about looking at the data, analyzing it, figure out what it’s really telling us. And then putting together some sort of end product, whether those are Excel worksheets or white papers that we can present to some of those key folks within our organization. So one thing that really appealed to me about this job as I was applying was that the director I now work under was talking about how Optum, an optimist part of UnitedHealth Group, so it’s really this very large organization, and how we have access to a lot of data. And there’s kind of this sandbox of data. And my role is about building sandcastles from that. I thought that was kind of an interesting-

Sujani 28:41
Yeah.

Jennifer 28:48
.. Analogy that kind of there’s a lot out there. And what can we do with it.

Sujani 31:03
Sounds like a dream organization for- especially for someone who loves to kind of look at the data and have access to a lot of data to then be able to write kind of meaning to it. All right.

Jennifer 31:16
Yeah, exactly. I love it.

Sujani 31:19
Thank you so much, Jennifer, for joining us on the podcast, and especially for sharing a lot of the post grad job search tips, I know, it’s going to be incredibly useful for a lot of our listeners, especially for those who are kind of thinking about the private sector and how to even you know, get into it if they don’t, if they’ve never met anybody with a public health background working in private sector. So what I took away was this importance of networking of going out talking to people and meeting people and seeing how you can get into kind of their world and be able to get a foot into the door to where you’d ideally, you know, like to build your career. And so any kind of last words of wisdom or advice that you’d like to share?

Jennifer 32:04
Yeah, well, I guess, first, thanks so much for having me on here, I hope this is helpful to folks, you know, any listeners feel free to reach out to me, I’m always happy to talk and help however, I can, I guess a few kind of closing thoughts, the language and industry can be a little different than maybe what some folks have experience with the public sector or in academia. So for instance, I know I’ve used the term patients a lot, but we tend not to use the term patients, they’re really our members. And then I’m just learning much more about kind of the financial side of things, my role is very much kind of bridging the patient outcomes, kind of sphere and that financial actuarial piece, which is what I didn’t have much experience. And so there’s definitely been kind of a steep learning curve. So that might just be something for people to consider to like, what are some of the the skills and just some of the basic language and jargon that you’re going to need to understand in your new role. And that kind of one last closing thought to something you mentioned is that I am a lecturer at a university, I teach an introductory community health class. And I think that kind of speaks to the idea that you don’t necessarily have to choose one or the other of private or public sector. And certainly, most of my time is spent in the private sector. But I remember when I was doing my doctorate, the president of our University at the time, Dr. Harris spoke to a group of students. He said that kind of regardless of what you do in the future, and with your degree, it can be useful to kind of keep a hands in academia to be affiliated with a university. And that was something I kept in mind. And I’ve always really loved teaching. And I just think it’s so fulfilling to be working with students kind of at the beginning of their health journey. And they’re so enthusiastic and bright and engaged with the material. I feel like it’s a bit of a cliche, but I learned so much from them. And it just, it’s a different perspective, than- than what I get through my job and industry. And so I think if you have the opportunity and the flexibility, and it’s something you want to do, I would encourage folks to look into maybe an adjunct role. I mean, at least for me, it’s just fulfilling in a different way and just kind of interacting with us first or second year students really reminds me why I got into public health.

Sujani 34:55
Yeah, I like that you said you know, you don’t have to choose one or the other and I hope, like, that’s something I’ve been able to get across to kind of our community members, is that you can kind of be creative in how you want your career to look like. It doesn’t have to be just, you know, one thing, you can you can have different elements, can make up your career, whether that’s, you know, writing for you or teaching, you know, for you, Jennifer or somebody else, maybe it’s like, I don’t know, graphic design work, right. And, you know.

Jennifer 35:27
Yeah.

Sujani 35:27
Like tying it all together. And you don’t have to choose just one. And it doesn’t just have to be that one nine to five job, like you can do other stuff and have this career that completely fulfills you.

Jennifer 35:40
Right? Absolutely. So if you really enjoy writing, then maybe looking for opportunities to contribute to your local paper, or I’ve seen a few job postings for like part time work doing medical writing. So I think there are definitely a lot of opportunities. I personally don’t really want to shut the door on a lot of things at this point in my career. Yeah, I think like you were saying, if you have an interest in something, and maybe you can do that kind of on the side or part time, it might be something to consider, you know, if your schedule allows, you know, we all have a lot going on.

Sujani 36:19
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer. And I hope that we can have you on again, and maybe talk about a different topic.

Jennifer 36:28
That’d be great. Thank you so much for having me.

Sujani 36:32
Hey, I hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you want to get the links or information mentioned in today’s episode, you can head over to pHspot.org/podcast. And we’ll have everything there for you. And before you go, I want to tell you about the public health career club. So if you’ve been looking for a place to connect and build meaningful relationships with other public health professionals, from all around the world, you should join us in the public health career club. We launched the club with the vision of becoming the number one hangout spot dedicated to building and growing your dream public health career. And in addition to being able to connect and build those meaningful relationships with other public health professionals, the club also offers other great resources for your career growth and success, like mindset coaching, job preparation, clinics, and career growth strategy sessions in the form of trainings and talks, all delivered by experts and inspiring individuals in these areas. So if you want to learn more or want to join the club, you can visit our page at pHspot.org/club. And we’ll have all the information there. And you know, as a space that’s being intentionally curated to bring together like minded public health professionals who are not only there to push themselves to become the best versions of themselves, but also each other. And with that, I can’t wait to see how this is going to have a ripple effect in the world as we all work together to better the health of our populations and just have immense impact in the world. And I hope you’ll be joining us in the public health career Club.